Very interesting indeed.
Governments have goons. That’s what makes them governments rather than debating societies.
Even the governments of relatively free societies have them. I would like some guidance from my fellow goons now.Back in the 1990’s, when I first graduated the academy and became a cop, I thought I was going to go out and slay dragons. I also thought that I would not have to compromise any of my beliefs in order to do so. I can not have been the first libertarian to go into this line of work. However I did not originally sign up to be a drug warrior, tax collector, or the mailed fist of the ‘Mommy Knows Best’ state. Yet somehow, I occasionally end up being all three of those things. Most of the time, though, I think that we still do more good than harm.
But at what point do we actually do more harm than good for liberty? When is it time to quit?
I must say, this is similar to a question I’ve asked numerous enlisted and commissioned folks over the years.
For you guys who have been filling in the comments section and blogging about why you took the military oath, lets flip it around in this comments section: When is it time to stop taking orders/What orders would cause you to stop taking them?
Not to be a fuss about it, but some specifics would be best.
Well, I worked in Aviation Electronics, not really a dangerous job until you get on the flight deck or are working on high voltages, so not a whole lot I could say to this question.
I would refuse to take orders directing me to do something unnecessarily unsafe, or contrary to regulations/UCMJ/law.
I’d only hope that any witnesses would tell the truth at the Court Martial…
The Enlisted Creed states:
“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”
There’s more on the current variant, but this is the consistant part between every service.
What I always considered “the line” was the UCMJ while in combat, but the UCMJ also makes allowance for lawful dissent. In the case of an officer ordering the execution of civilians or a similar extreme I would happily defy his order even at the cost of my own life/career/paycheck.
The collection/enforcement of taxes and drug laws can only be changed by a greater body than the individual, but the actual act of taking money or property leaves the enforcer clean of guilt so long as he doesn’t violate the collectee’s rights of life, libertry, ect. as an individual. Yes I would follow orders; no, not as far as depriving an innocent of life. I may give him a swift kick for getting caught, though.
I quit taking orders when I decide that they violate the law.
Then I ask my supervisors for a clarification, while showing them the law. Up till this point, the order has always gone away.
I’ve always made sure I knew what the limits were, where the line was, and I knew that if asked to cross the line or break the limits, I would take the court martial over my soul.
If you are doing good, yet stomping on a persons rights, you aren’t doing good anymore.
“…support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..”
That pretty well demands individual discretion, without regard to any “greater body”. Isn’t that the entire point of it, as opposed to an oath of mere obedience? What “greater Body” above the Constitution have we?
The Katrina gun confiscations– that was very clearly “over the line” yet look at how easily they got people to do it, and look at the fact that no one was prosecuted for it. I see no evidence that there would be much difficulty repeating something equally bad, or worse.
And if anyone is forced to decide on following an order that is unconstitutional, remember that it took many years to endict and convict certain people using 18 USC 241 and 242. Look ’em up. Point there is; those people’s race crimes took a very long time to catch up with them. The crimes were committed in a time when the perpetrators were confident they’d never have to answer for them. Times can change.
Specifically when the laws are changed to make the unlawful lawful.
Stomping free speech.
Confiscating firearms.
Persecuting minorities such as Jews or Christians.
If I’m ordered to do something that makes me a Nazi thug instead of a soldier, it’s time to call it quits.
I’m no longer on active duty, but I would have/still would draw the line at violating any portion of our Constitution or Bill Of Rights.
That is in addition to the previous comments about human rights & a clear conscience.
Frankly I would expect the part about “enemies foreign or DOMESTIC” to be the most likely sceniero for the future.
Merle